Podcast Transcript: Episode 20 - Top Pair Top Kicker

(Music Intro.)

 

Scott:  It’s episode #20 of, “The Postflop Poker Podcast.” The show for serious recreational player, who is looking to improve their game. And since it is a milestone episode, the big 2-0, we’ve got a great show lined up for you. The hand that is sure to bust more people, than an ‘80’s cop movie. I am of course talking about flopping top pair, top kicker, or TP-TK as the kids like to say these days. So, without further ado, let me introduce the team, I am your Host – Scott ManxMann78” Quayle, and my job is to basically ask the dumb questions that all of you guys want to ask but you can’t.

    Now we do actually have some Poker teller on the show, in the form of my Co-Hosts – So, first up, he’s our resident pro. The man who thinks humility is for suckers. Forever willing to get the last word in. It’s Ben “Gamb64” Hayles, hello Ben.

 

Ben:  (Chuckling) Hello everybody.

 

Scott:  Did I go too personally with the intro this week?

 

Ben:  Well, it’s funny, the whole, TP-TK, I’m intrigued actually, by where that came from? Who came up with TP-TK, for “Top-Pair, Top-Kicker?” I’d like to know? I want to know?

 

Scott:  It’s my guess would be, you know, when instant chat and messaging came around, and everyone was too lazy to write it. So, they just, there’s so many, there’s – LAMFOM, there’s BRB, been around since even back in my university days, when I was at,

 

Ben:  Yeah. But the poker ones? Are very specific to poker players right? And, you know.

 

Scott:  They’re just abbreviated you’re just abbreviating words aren’t you?

 

Ben:  Yeah, I use in my books, Scott. And I don’t think I have it before? So, I’m just throwing that out there? Who came up with it.

 

Scott: You can’t seriously be claiming it?

 

Ben:   Ah, listen, like, I always get the last word in everywhere, Scott.

 

(Laughing)

 

Ben:  First word in too.

 

Scott:  True to form, true to form. Alright well, glad you’re with us again, Ben. Shall we bring on our Co-Host?

Ben:  Do we have to? Don’t think so.

 

Scott:  Yeah, okay. Now, we are also joined by a man who is hard to read as a Mandarin street sign. Last week proving that, even just his voice has the same poker face. It’s,

“Maniac Mike Turner.” Hello Mike.

 

Mike:  Hey guys, I’m happy that you didn’t say anything about my previous, term, episode? About my “Rainman” stuff. And.

 

Scott:  Ah, that’s what I was eluding to. The fact that a, neither Ben, nor myself actually knew you were joking? You were so…

 

Mike:  Ah,

 

Scott:  I was going to come up with an intro that was something like? You were drier than, and obviously there were lots of rude jokes I could have gone with? But I thought it would be harder to read than Mandarin street sign was quite good too.

 

Mike:  I liked it.

 

Scott:  Yes. And how have you been Mike?

 

Mike:  Yeah, I just turned five the weekend. Eh, the neighborhood here almost exploded here on Sunday with which was a funny story.

 

Ben:  Is it true, is it a true story?

 

Mike:  It’s a true story, it’s a true story, at least, according to the media. Because it was all over the news and the internet etc… So, I guess…

 

Ben:  Well, if it was all over the internet than it must be true. Go on tell us about it?

 

Mike:  Yeah, there were two local rappers and that. A bit of a feud, where by, one of them released a two video with a disc track. With an audio that was saying, “Pussy” and some stuff about his mother. You know how that goes? And the other one wasn’t really having it, so he challenged him to a duel. A big fight, and there it’s going to take place on Sunday night. A couple of blocks away from here.

 

Scott:  Wow, that’s huge.

 

Mike:  Yeah, a couple of blocks from here.

 

Scott:  Right there on the back streets of Amsterdam.

 

Mike:  No, no. I’m not living in the South of there, Netherlands Street. It’s not really a big city. Of the North of the town is quite, It hasn’t the bad reputation.

Scott:  Wow.

 

Mike:  Some gangsters are living there and stuff. And so, yeah, did check and turn into a fight. And there was a couple of blocks away. And I think there were over 100 people armed with bats, and knives, etc… Just a ready to rumble. But in the end the police were aware of it because they posted everything online. And so, the police had some extra force just coming in and swept the area clean. And so, in the end, it was not taking place, like but, a yeah, well. But, I have to say, well, I am aware that you and Ben have released some of your disc tracks of your own about me on YouTube called, calling me “Smithers” and “Rainman.” Etc… So,

 

            (Laughing)

 

Mike:  Just warning you about the consequences. You know, now you can see what will happen from stuff like this.

 

Ben:   Well, yeah, we’ve got connections with Dutch gangsters. Well, I’m glad you survived safe and sound Mike.

 

Scott:  Yes I do release that track, funny it hasn’t quite gained the traction and got the views I was hoping it might also. I’ll have to come up with something different? But, oh well, well, interesting, interesting, weekend anything like that? Anything Bangkok gangs, in your neck of the woods, Ben? Or do you live in a nice neighborhood, up in the city?

 

Ben:  I’ve got about 60 insect bites that really frustrate me right now. I’m scratching away. And that’s about as interesting as it’s got.

 

Scott:  The worst thing we have, because I live across the road from Kids Park. It’s a 15-year old’s just sitting at a picnic table talking shit. So, a yeah, we don’t have any gangs over here. Um, good, well, that’s gang chat out of the way, we’ll get an update next week from you Mike. Shall we talk some poker?

 

Ben:  Yeah.

 

Mike: Yeah, please.

 

Scott:  Yeah? Well, today, “Top-Pair” “Top-Kicker”

 

Ben:  TP-TK.

 

Scott:  Yes, I know you love your,

 

Ben:  TP-TK.

 

Scott:  Certainly a hand that I struggle with. So I’m quite looking forward to having a look at these. And true form, I’ve not skipped ahead and done my research and looked at the hand. So, I’m going to be going in cold. And I should say, I want it, to give a shout out the guy called, “Steve Bird” who, hit me up on Twitter. And said that he listens to the show while he’s driving. Because if you remember on the last show? I said, just kind of weirdly, and not expecting anyone to actually respond? Where do you listen to the show? A guy hit me up on Twitter and said, “Mister, I promise I’d give him a shout out, so thank you Steve. Thanks for listening, thanks for getting in touch on Twitter.” And actually we get a kick out of this little shout out. So, if anyone else wants to shout out? Then you just have to hit us up on Twitter. Cool, alright that, so that was a bit of a ramble.

  And so now we’re talking about, Top-Pair, Top-Kicker. We’ve got some good hands. We’ve got cash hands guys, what we’ve got to look forward to?

 

Ben:   Oh, we just got so many hands, we’ve got coming. We’ve got about fifteen hands. So,

 

Scott:  So, I’m going to settle in for a long show then?

 

Mike:  Seven hours, something like that?

 

Scott:  Alright.

 

Mike:  We’ve got so many hands don’t know which one to choose? Which ones we are doing?

 

Scott:  Alright, let’s do that. We’ll take a break, we’ll choose which ones, which hands and we’ll be back in just a moment. At the “Postflop Poker Podcast.”

 

[00:07:41]

(Music Out)

(Commercial Break)

(Music Intro.)

[00:07:59]

 

Scott:  Welcome back everyone, we are ready for hand #1. Just to see a little insight to our, what happens during these commercial breaks? We had about another ten minutes of gang chat. Followed by about 30 seconds of hand selection. So, we picked a good one for you. We have Ben Inhales hand, Ben? You ready to take us through?

 

Ben:  Yes, it is, one of mine. I am playing in a twelve-man suit max. Sit in like a square table structure. Where you start with twelve guys. And then three guys get paid, and there is four left. So, it’s a bubble situation, in which is interesting. And does in fact, just the thought process here. And I am set with 2300 chips. They’re two big stacks of 5000 and 7000, and then there’s another 2000. So, I’m in a little bit of danger in this hand. And one of the big stacks, on the button, limps into the pot. Which I think was customary for him? He was that type of player. And a little bit of a fish. And I decided to complete the small ace, 8 off suit, rightly or wrongly that’s what I did. I’ve got, how many big blinds do I got? 24 of big blinds I’ve got. The lines of 50 and 100. So, the big blind checks, we see a flop, and flop.

 

Scott:  Do we want to know? Address anything pre-flop, right Mike. Have any comments there? You just sounded, sheepish grin. When you said, “Rightly or wrongly that’s what I did.” I just wanted to.

 

Mike:  A that’s what I did, you’re wanting to challenge my completion, yeah.

 

Scott:  Yeah.

 

Ben:  I don’t know?

 

Scott:  Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, Mike. Well, I think coached by PezRez. And I don’t know if any of you guys? Ben probably knows? Because he was a very good connections binder.

 

Mike:  And he has like 200,000 profit for S & G’s. And he’s not playing at the moment. But I coached under him for about two years ago. And he’s actually very much into limping from the small blind. Even though, I know that you are very much against open limping. But, you know, from the small blind he.

 

Ben:  I’m not saying that. Yeah. I’m just trying to find out.

 

Mike:  Yeah, I understand that.

 

Ben:  Yeah, we have that little argument last week didn’t we? Yeah, so I get that. I think there is logic in what you’re saying about limping.

 

Mike:  But didn’t you say, this is not an open limp? This is?

 

Ben:  This is not. This is not an open limp, this is a completion.

 

Mike:  Exactly, yeah. And in that case he said, basically if you have the stack to afford it. You’re gonna have to call it. They need two cards, most of the time because you’re getting fantastic pot odds in a small blind. Especially if somebody opens limp before you. Even if you have 7 duece off suit, you can still flop 10, 7 deuce if you want? It’s not very likely, that doesn’t have to be likely either because you’re getting such a good price in this small blind to just complete. So, I’m perfectly fine with completing the Ace, 8, here for me, that’s pretty standard in this situation. If you have a stack of over 2000 chips.

 

Mike:  Okay.

 

Ben:  it’s pretty expensive. Assuming the big blind is going to check behind me. It’s 50 chips, to see a flop. The pot’s going to be 300, where I’ve probably got the best hand. You know, it’s a very average hand, Ace, 8’s. But probably the best of the three hands. So, be it kind of a silly fold, I think. I really don’t like raising in this spot because of the bubble dynamics. But, you probably could put a big argument in for raising. And the reason I don’t like doing that here? I feel both my opponents will be a bit loose. And therefore I just prefer taking a cheap flop and taking it from there.

 

Mike:  Did something just collapse there? You guys okay?

 

Scott:  Is it the gang? Is it the gang? The gangs.

 

Ben:  Michael.

 

(Laughing)

 

Scott:  Somebody shut the door yeah.

 

Ben:  It wasn’t my end was it? Kinda random, cat food incident with which took place, without any interference from anyone?

 

(Laughing)

 

Scott:  Well, we’ve addressed pre-flop then it seems, like a everyone is happy with your play. Or have you talked about the suits? Because I can see you’ve flop a some back doors eh?

 

Mike:  Yeah.

 

Ben:  Well, okay, it’s an off suited Ace, 8. And the flop hand has two spades on it. I’ve got the Ace, 8 of spades. So, not really much to discuss on the suits I’ve got, a vague back door, flush draw straight on the spades. It’s, And there are two spades on board. And the 8, and the 6 are vaguely connected. Which means the blood is not super, super dry, It’s very dry. But, it’s not as dry as it could be, if obviously the suits were all rainbow.

 

Scott:  Well, let’s just confirm the flop. Because I think I interrupted you’re, need going through the flop?

 

Mike:  The 2 of spades, 8 of diamonds, six of spades. And the action’s on me. Because I’m in the small blind. So, there’s 300 of them in the middle. And I have 2300 in my stacks. So, SPR’s going to be, what? 7 or 8? Top Pair, Top Kicker, that’s a dodgy SPR? I’ll tell you that now. The type of SPR, while you should quite not be committed. But normally, you are gonna push through to a show down. Most of the time you are gonna end up committing to a suit of this hand. But, it’s to that point where, there are times where you’re not going to be. And definitely, hey in the greys area, don’t. In my book I talk about SPR’s of 6 and 7 of being around the point. Where you’re nearly always gonna just have to commit it to your hand. When you’ve got

  Top Pair-Top Kicker. But, I’m just outside that. Because the hand is crucially in this spot. I’m in bubble when I see that some pressure. So, what do I choose to do? Well, I choose, because I have two opponents who will always lead out here. And, if it was a raised pot, pre-flop. Then I would, I would probably still lead out here. But I’d be less inclined to, you know raised pot. And in a limped pot, I’m nearly always going to raise and lead out here. Because I’ve got Top Pair-Top Kicker. That’s exactly the type of hand where I am going to take the initiative. Even though I’m out of position, against both players. I think in terms of your value hands for leading. This is one of the types of hands where it makes most sense to come out firing. You’ve got Top Kicker here. So, the types of hands that are going to get action from? Include a lot of top pair hands, that could be King-8 – Queen-8, Jack-8, 10-8, 9-8, etc… And they need hands all are paying you off. So, you have to think about that value. And value is a big part of what I am thinking about here. I also want to make sure I am isolate. So, the two key concepts that I am thinking about are? isolation, and value. And for that reason I choose, to over bet the pot. I’ve got 400 into a 300 pot. Mike.

 

Mike:  Yeah, when I first saw this hand I was puzzled that you over bet the pot. Because it, yeah, it looks, I understand the reasoning of it. That you want to do it for isolation value. But still, yeah, I’m not entirely sure about it? Given the situation that it’s on the bubble. And the guy who was shorter you in had already folded. So, you’re up against the two big stacks. And you have a little bit more chips than the guy in last position. So, yeah, I’m not sure if it is a good hand? But, it’s taking a lot of risks as well. And I don’t know about the, you said that they were both pretty loose, the big stacks. So, you’re kind of, you’re putting yourself in the situation where your maybe creating a very big pot against loose big stacked upon opponents in a bubble situation. Where you have to be very careful. So, it’s

 

Scott:  Yeah, it’s a tricky spot, I’m not sure if I would over bet the pot here. I would probably bet a little bit smaller. Ben, can I ask you a question? Is, what is the thinking, I behind betting 400? Do you think a bet of 300 is safe? Say, the pot size achieves the same thing? Or is adding that extra bit? You think you’re gonna secure more folds? Or just, what is about your thinking?

 

Ben:  I mean, normally I would do this, with this, in this spot. But, both my opponents have been really loose. And the statistics are really loose. They just play too many hands. They are involved too much. So, I really think that I’ve got huge value. I think that I had really, really, really, really, high percentage at the time. These guys have been really loose, passive. You know, we’ve already seen an 8 open went limp from one of them. So, I feel like this is the classic spot where you just got to go for value. And this is the right adjustment for when you’re going for value. So, although, I agree with what Mike is saying, I see why I am, this is very, very high risk. I still kind of like it, theoretically. I’m more likely to go down to one loose opponent, and get rid of one. And make life a little bit easier in that regard. But, the flip side is, yeah, I’m going to create a problem on the 10 in the river. Because I just might have to be end up you know, taking a big risk if a river card drops on the turn. I just might have to commit? It’s my hand, and it’s really risky.

 

Mike:  Yeah

 

Ben:  It could get really tricky.

 

Mike:  It’s made more difficult with the fact that you’re out of position. Like if he just flat it just seems like he can put you in such a tough spot on the turn.

 

Ben:  Yeah, but it’s going to be, even if just one flops. The pair will be down to one. And I can pretty much shove, you know? And I still think I’m going to be ahead and really, really lost when they flop. That’s the thing.

 

Mike:  Yeah.

 

Ben:  Me playing it this way, means that when I see them flop, means I’m ahead. And therefore I’m just cruising for the show down.

 

Mike:  What cards do you not want to see on the turn?

 

Ben:  A spade, an over card, 9, 10, Jack, Queen, King, lots of cards. And hence the large bet, so I don’t see that card very often.

 

Mike:  So, you’ll keep betting until you see folds? Or keep betting for value?

 

Ben:  Yeah. I’m betting to get folds. I’ll value if they call. Because it’s very hard for me to fold this hand. And that’s why I’m going, I’m trying to get rid of them. I don’t think that I am going to be up against a better hand very often. So, I am charging towards a show down on the turn. Which is high risk. And probably, (a deep sigh) against good opponents. This is probably not a smart way. But against loose opponents you have to find the balance. Between obstructing value and taking a little bit of a risk against the small percentage of it. And when they do, actually have a good hand. These flops 8,2,6 in fact, are fairly innocuous, a fairly innocuous flop. I feel like I should have the best hand really high percentage of the time. Like, 95% of the time I should have the best hand here.

 

Mike:  Yeah.

 

Ben:  Maybe that has a wrong assumption? I don’t know? But it feels like that.

 

Scott:  Mike, any final thoughts before we see what happens?

 

Mike:  Yeah. But, the last point you said, 95% sounds like about right. Unless the guy on the, somebody is probably not limping. Betting on a 9’s or better. So, a yeah, I agree that you have the best hand very often. But it’s a risky call, orthodox play. But, yeah, it’s different. I like how Ben thinks, and he because normally you wouldn’t bet a 400 in this spot, I guess?

 

Scott:  Ben, is this when they say, you’re playing exploitative in theory.

 

Mike:  Yeah.

 

Ben:  That is a really good point Scott. If I have a word to give, if I may even give it to you right there.

Scott:  Well, let’s give it to me. Because I was sitting here thinking? Should I ask this question? Am I going to sound like an idiot, if I ask this question? If I ask it, let’s give me the award.

 

Ben:  Yeah. My school motto was, Sapara Audie, which is, “Dare to be wise.” So, that’s what you do guys. So, well done, congratulations.

 

Mike:  Thank you.

 

Scott:  Thank you. So, basically what that means? Is, we know it’s not always the right play. But, in this situation you’re exploiting your opponent’s weaknesses.

 

Ben:  Yeah, yeah. Your shuffling, you know you’ve got boardland decision. And you’re shuffling it in one direction. In order to, yeah, exploit their weaknesses is exactly right.

 

Scott:  Alright, cool. So you bet 400 into 300? What happens next?

 

Ben:  Well, there’s an old all in, from the big blind, it’s a big re-raise. What would he be doing this with? Well, flush draws, really good straight draw, a combination of those two draws. Two pair, maybe? But maybe he would play them a bit more subtly. And then maybe 8X, so they are luckily the same 9X, JackX, sorry Jack-8, 9-8, 10-8’s etc… Those types of hands, Ace-8’s as well. Same hand as mine. These hands are the hands that are in this sort of potential list. I’m not doing particularly well against that range. But, I’m probably going to be bust or call it off. I think he’s going to have draws often enough. For me to think that, you know, or a weaker 8. For me to think it’s worth calling. So, at this point I think I’m going to call. But then the button, or also calls. And these two stacks are the biggest stacks. So, when you see this and you’re on the bubble. And two big stacks are going up against each other. The ICM it is starts to intensify mach. Because by folding I could go into the money. If the right stack wins, I can fold. And I’m the guy here who wants to be a millionaire. He just got his 18,000. So, you know what I mean? Without having to enter into the gamble. I’m, the second guy, or really? To have a minimum of two pair, alright, I think in this box.

              So, while he’s being a loose player and I’m not particularly comfortable in his ability? The fact that he ought to have a really strong hand here. Makes this a fairly straight forward fold. And it’s to fold, I think a lot of recreational players get wrong. I see many, many people making this call. I’ve only got to call 1500 into a pot that’s, is difficult to work out in. In fact, start with the numbers I’ve got in front of me. But, I’m thinking the effective stacks is going to be? If I win this, I’m going to win around 7000. So, it’s 1500 to win 7000. It’s very attractive when you think you might have the best hand to make the call here, in terms of winning the tournament. Yeah, you’ve got a decision to make. And I don’t know? Mannix, should say, I make the call, I don’t know? But I made the fold. And I thought that, you know, I’m going to put my trust in MY who makes this call. The button, I think he must have a stronger hand, than.

 

Scott:  Surely, surely, he has to have a strong hand to fold that.

 

Mike:  Yeah, does this, it feels like it. Like I said, I haven’t seen the results. But it feels like a set to me.

 

Ben:  Yeah, exactly, a set or two pair. And you know, if he’s a good player, he folds a draw. He could also have a draw. But you know, it’s one of those.

 

Scott:  Mike. Any thoughts on that?

 

Mike:  Yeah, I’m just would be super upset if I fold. But I’m gonna be disappointed because his screen name is Gamb64, I thought you were going to just going to gamble? He uses that name to throw people off.

 

Scott:  Ahhh, Yeah.

 

Mike:  That’s just very cleaver. Yeah, that’s just a super standard fold. And let’s just say, we hope that we get into the money and big stack, plus the second stack. And but probably it’s going to be the other way around. Because the guy second in chips. He should have a really big hand. At least a set, or maybe some kind of weird, wisely played pocket. Kings or Aces. He’s just limping on the button. You know, sometimes that happens. But in any case, the guy is absolutely crushed by that guy, the second guy. And when he went to fold, it would probably be a call I guess? Although yeah, we’re not really happy just calling out. But, the first guy shoving usually has a straight draw, or a bust draw, or a weak top pair.

 

Ben:  Good, alright so, we’re on the same page, and Scott we’re absolutely right by the way. You would work up with pocket 6’s on the button. And the other guys have the big blind, I show – Jack-8 of hearts. So, he had to go out there with the hands we were thinking when we were here pulling off. We would have won against his hands. It was played, I think, like you said Mike, fairly standard before fold.

 

Mike:  But he still.

 

Ben:  I still see that mistake with, even at his standard and easy. And you know what? You’re analyzing it, it looks easy. Definitely one I see a lot of mistakes with this. Also mostly pull-ins, fold, fold every time, especially if.

 

Mike:  You would have lost actually. Because there was a chance the river card

 

Ben:  There was a chance, yeah, sorry.

 

Mike:  That’s in consequential a lot. For that a lot, yeah, yeah.

 

Ben:  Terrible play by the big blind. Yeah, I don’t know why he’s shoving Jack-8, Mike?

 

Mike:  Well, he’s trying to isolate.

 

Scott:  It feels like a big risk? Especially when the others are still in the hand.

 

Mike:  Yeah, it’s a dumb mistake because. Yeah, you isolate against the bet. But, you worry about the button being denied. It makes sense to go all in against Ben I guess, but? You can’t just shove here, you either made it more raise, or just call.

 

Ben:  Yeah, exactly.

 

Scott:  Interesting.

 

Ben:  If it was just me and him? Call’s fine, if he wants to ask twice. Then delay, and a small raise. Then leave himself the right stacked deck so he can easily fold to a full batch from the bottom.

 

Scott:  Well, there we go, first ever hand where we’ve seen a fold, since we’ve started.

 

Mike:  I’m responsible back by popular demand.

 

Scott:  Mike, remember when we had a couple of Emails and I can’t remember if it was from the same person. But, there was one listener who was avid about the fact that we should be. Discussing hands that fold. But, up until this point, had very strong hands.

 

Ben:  So, then there was my line, going on about it as well. And

 

Scott:  Yeah, that was more about difficult hand, to hands that you lose. Rather than.

 

Ben:  Yeah, yeah.

 

Mike:  Was I out, because I missed the whole point?

 

Ben:  I brought two hands to the table this week, and I folded them and flopped.

 

(Laughing)

 

Scott:  Anyway, well.

 

Mike:  Shall we move onto hand 2?

 

Scott:  Yes, Let’s take a short break. And bring up hand 2. Probably have a bit more gang chat. And then we’ll be back, on the “Postflop Poker Podcast.”

 

 

 

 

[00:29:29]

(Commercial Break)

(Music Intro.)

[00:30:21]

 

Scott:  Welcome back everyone, we are ready for hand #2. And for those of you who are still interested? The instigator of the gang has been arrested. So we can sleep easy this evening. Okay, Mike this is a cash game hand, I believe.

 

Mike:  Yes, it’s a cash game hand, we all just had a review of it. I think the other day. Of someone saying we really appreciate the bringing of the cash game hands to the show. So, we’re planning on doing that more often. Yeah, this is an

8-King hand. The dreaded Ace-King, you know. The hand that is pretty difficult to play at times. And I’ve got Ace-King off-suit, Aces of Diamonds-King of Hearts. And the guy under the gun. This is zoom cash begin 5 cents, and the guy under the gun raises to $0.30 cents. And gets a call from under the gun plus one. The other two guys fold. And remember, we’re in a small blind with Ace-King. And I decide to 3 bet to $1.50. So, I’m making five times the original raise. And we’re pretty deep here, says I have over 200 big blinds at the start of the hand. Run in 10 blinds. So, little over $20.00 bucks. And I decide to make it $1.50. So, it’s a pretty big 3 bets. I’m not sure what you would do here Ben?

 

Ben:  Eh, I’d make it a 3 bet in this spot. But, I am concerned about ranges. Though, my question to you would be? Would you see it as being the under the gun raises range? And the guy calling? What ranges of “A-play” and how well is Ace-King off-suit doing against those ranges?

 

Mike:  A yeah. I mean, when someone raises on a gun on a 6. It’s usually going to be pretty strong. But, on a cash game table, and the guy under the gun also has more than 200 big blinds. And you and the other guy calling it’s just 100 big blinds. So, the guy raising under the gun has a very deep stack. And given that he has a deep stack. I think he would have a pretty wide range still of quality hands. So, big Ace’s pocket pairs, high suit connectors, stuff like that. It’s not opening garbage. But, it’s not really limited to absolute premium. And I think, when you’re in this deep.

 

Ben:  No, yeah, I agree with you that especially when the caller comes in. Then it makes me more want that 3 bet. It’s again, about isolation. Which is a constant being, and should be. Because, pre-flop, is flop, if you know thinking about isolating. Then you are making a mistake. Isolation is so such an important concept when you’re playing “Hold ‘em.”  So, here, I like the intention, even though the raise King does okay in multi-way paths. I still prefer going in as the aggressor. And as the guy who’s isolator, or make them both fold. That’s the two things which we are trying to do when we re-raise pre-flop. We’re trying to make all our opponents fold or isolate to one. So, I like you’re sizing, I like the choice. I’ve got nothing further to add.

 

 

 

Mike:  Yeah, right, and we’re out of position as well. So, that’s another reason to 3 bet here. Because. Yeah, just calling would be a bit too weak I guess? And I admit looking at 5 times the original raise because someone is over calling. And if you make it 3 times, 4 times your original. Getting both your opponents a very good price to play against you being in position. So, that’s definitely not an ideal situation to go 3 way to the flop. With Ace-King off suit, out of position.

 

Ben:  And I sort of think one particular more advanced point would be? If one of your opponents was a 4 bet. I think you’ve got a fairly straight forward fold. Which is now full. If somebody 4 bets me? I want to know how I’m going to respond in this spot with just Ace-King off suit, is very straight forward. You’re going to have Ace’s and Kings really often. And they have Queens or King, against that range on winning 25% to 35% of the times. I’m folding every time.

 

Mike:  Yeah, perhaps if the under the gun plus one, 4 bets, you might get it in? I would be more worried about under the gun 4 betting? Because he would probably have it, a pretty strong hand. But the guy calling the raise, when he 4 bets. There could still be a lot of weaker hands in this range. And he has a smaller stack as well for many more big blinds as well. But, yeah, that would be very tough to sit in as well.

 

Ben:  Yeah, if I looked it, his stacks and saw lots and lots of weaknesses. Then I would be more inclined to call off, absolutely, yeah.

 

Mike:  Both players are very tight by the way. So, that’s another thing that you should know, that both of them are pretty tight.

 

Ben:  Okay. So, we hit the flop, and flop is?

 

Mike:  And the flop is, 4, 10, Ace, a it’s a rainbow flop. So, we hit, a Top Pair, Top Kicker, with our Ace. And I think this is a really good flop for us. Of course we have to TP-TK, which is, really nice. But there are also some gut shots, and stuff.

 

Ben:  I feel like that really smart and good.

 

Mike:  I think we may have missed what happened? What they responded to your 3 bet with? I think we just.

 

Scott:  Alright.

 

Mike:  Yeah, that’s a good point. The under the gun guy called. And the other guy folded. Yeah,

 

Scott:  that’s what you get when you let Ben direct you? Direct you to direct, Mike, not your fault. Ben, you’re responsible, you leave the hand driving to me.

 

Mike:  Yeah, Ben is a lousy host.

 

Scott:  I think we established that about three episodes ago.

 

Mike:  A, that would be three. Yeah, I remember. I wasn’t even there.

 

(Cross talk)

 

Ben:  I remember, I remember, yeah. Okay, the original raiser, called the other guy, folded. It’s the 4 of Clubs, 10 of Spades, Ace of Hearts, different like.

 

Mike:  Yeah. So, we’re heads up again, against the under the gun player, and this was a guy who wasn’t very deep, deep stacked, sorry. At this point, I have $19.50 behind. And he has $15.00 bucks. And the pot is $3.40 bucks. So, the SPR is about 6, a little less than 6. So, yeah, I decide to just make odds continuation bet. And if I were to just check here, it would really look suspicious. Because, you know, I’ve bet pre-flop, and I would just check my hand on this flop. That doesn’t make much sense. So, even if I didn’t have an Ace? I would also through and make a continuation bet. So, yeah, I’m making a continuation bet here with Ace, and without the Ace. And it’s pretty standard, I feel on this board. And there are still quite a few hands in my opponent’s range. That they can call this, I beat, such as: King – Queen, Queen – Jack, know those hands that I would have a shot here, A pair of 10’s. Any males would have a pair of Aces that are worse than mine. Like, Ace – Queen, or Ace – Jack.

 

Ben:  A pair of 10’s is not good for you though, mate.

 

Mike:  Yeah, I mean, not a pocket pair of 10’s. But like a King – 10, Queen – 10.

 

Ben:  My bad, my bad, sorry.

 

Mike:  So, I decided to bet $1.60, which is around half the pot.  So, it’s still, yeah. It’s not really a super big bet. And maybe I’m doing this all so to kind of still have the opportunity to go away from the hand if a really bad turn in river card hits. And depending on what my opponent does also give him the chance to make a raise here. If he has Ace-Queen, or Ace-Jack. He might just raise me here. And we can get it all in, which I’m fine with the hand just drawn. So, yes.

 

Scott:  So Ben, any comments?

 

Ben:  A yeah. A, your a difficult stack to pot ratio for Top Pair-Top Kicker. Because

7, 8, - 6, 7, 8, this is a grey zone. Where, are you committed to the hand. And no matter how strong it is? In this case, it’s the absolute pinnacle of the run of this – Ace-King on an Ace high board. Doesn’t get much more comfortable than this. But even here, SPR-7, 8, 9 half how far you go before you read about pocket 4’s. You know, the flop’s got 4 in it. So, it’s really, really tricky. And I’m glad that you brought it home to the show today. Because it’s very generic, it’s a spot we’ve all been in, many, many times. At what point are you, committed to this hand? Is really interesting question? You 3 bet, pre-flop, in cash game, you created an SPR that needs them. And, kinda tempted to just say, “Well, okay, occasionally he’s got pocket 4’s, pocket 10’s,

Ace-10. But, I’m happy to bet, double barrel, triple barrel. Because I’m getting value from it, Ace-Jack, Ace-Queen. You know, and these target hands, and these are hands in his range that are massive. And we need to differentiate this. Between this, when we’re betting. How much value, how much money are we making? And then how much money are we losing? When he’s got a really good hand? (A deep sigh). I’m inclined spots to be fairly inclined to be aggressive. And as we go through Top Pair, Medium Kicker, and Top Pair, Wheat Kicker. You’ll see that, that attitude changes dramatically. If you are looking forward to episode #21 or #22.  But, yeah, I’m, we did a session on Ace-King. And one of the things that came out of that was? It’s very rare, when I don’t like, being aggressive, that when you flop, Top Pair. I think that in this spot, you are going to get value from a lot of hands. And you should be aiming to extract that value. So, I would prefer, I like the continuation better. But I certainly don’t like any other line-up. I don’t want any negativity as we move forward. I think positivity is important. Because we are extracting value. And that dominates my thoughts, more than the slight. Yeah. I could have pocket 4’s. But, a Ace-Queen, Ace-Jack, there’s more combinations of them, then there are of pocket 4’s.

 

Scott:  Mike I think that was Ben’s way of saying, he agrees with your play.

 

Mike:  Did I whistle?

 

Scott:  Yeah,

 

Mike:  Oh, sorry guys.

 

Scott:  Okay, so. What happens next Mike?

 

Mike:  The only thin area Ben is talking about. I mean, I’ve been playing cash games for the past couple of months. I’m not playing that often actually. But, playing occasionally I am. And one of the things I’ve noticed? Is just that, contrary to tournaments, these spots are really tricky in cash games because more often than not. They’re going to be up against, you’re getting a lot of action for, you’re going to be up against a better hand. And one of the reasons is? That people in tournaments, they bluff more often than it seems, than cash games. Because the SPR is going to be lower. So, people just, with the pot is going to be more enticed for them to take more risks to try and win it. To whereas, in cash games you’re also more deeper stacked. So, with 200 big blinds. If somebody wants to get us our entire stack in? I wouldn’t be very happy about it that’s for sure. Because a lot of the times you’re going to be up against Ace-Ten, Ace-4, pocket 4’s, pocket 10’s. So, yeah, if I get a lot of action? I might yeah, I think I’m getting in here on the flop. But, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a large percentage of the time of better hands. So,

 

 

 

Ben:  Yeah, pocket 10’s, pocket 4’s, Ace-King, Ace-Queen, Ace-Jack, Ace-10, you are losing to a fat proportion of them. So, I think when bets get really aggressive at the turn stage. You’re going to find out whether he’s got one of the hands that’s beating you. Or one of the hands that you’re winning against. And it’s really important we get to that point where we find out?

 

Scott & Mike:  Well, let’s do it!

 

Scott:  Let’s find out.

 

Mike:  Yeah. He calls and the turn is the 6 of Hearts. So, there are now two Hearts on board. But, the board still looks relatively okay for our hand. And I decide to check. Which is, yeah, I decide not to double barrel here on the turn. Mainly because, I thought if my opponent does not have an Ace? I’m now giving him the opportunity to continue with this loss. I’m just checking a turn, I’m showing weakness on my part. One of my think, okay, if I have a King-Queen, or King-Jack, with four gut shot. Or a King-10 for a pair of 10’s or whatever? Or an Ace-Queen, Ace-Jack. He’s just gonna a little out of those hands with his total error. Makes it a weaker type of hand. So, I’m getting value from those hands. And if I double barrel, is he really going to call? With King-Jack, King-Queen, no, he’s just going to fold. Even his weaker Aces, he’s probably just going to fold. So yeah, the main reason I check here is, to get extra value from his weaker range. But I do give him the chance of course to out draw me on the river. With the hard draw, or maybe? A single pair hand, these can turn into a two pair hand, and something like that. But, I’m willing to take that risk and check this on the turn.

 

Ben:  And I sense you may want to disagree?

 

Mike:  Yeah, I passionately disagree.

 

Ben:  with the check on the river. Yeah, I think in this spot you got to go for value. The 6 of Hearts is a good spot on the 10. It’s not really helped in very often in at all. So, from his range, you’re talking about on the flop. I feel like you’re up against – Jack-8, Ace-Queen, often. Even some floater hands. Now it, he’s got, if he’s got some. If you feel like he’s a completely crazy guy who, floating a lot of flops with nothing. It maybe, a check is not bad play, If he’s bluffing off. But most players who pulled a 3 back, pre-flop here? And called again on the flop. I think you’re targeting a really specific type of hand. Ace-King, Ace-Queen, Ace-Jack, Ace-10. Even if you see today’s is. If you see the connectors, then a few pocket pairs may still be here. Yeah, you’re going to get rid of the worst of that. But, yeah, that’s not such a bad thing. I don’t want to be checking, inducing a check behind. I want to be extracting value, focused in on the target hands. That are – Ace-Queen, Ace-Jack, and Ace-X suited. So that’s I think the drop out best.

 

Mike:  That’s actually interesting, because I’m checking here for value. And just, I’m thinking I can get more value by checking, than I can by betting. Because the hand leaves.

 

Ben:  Yeah, then you believe he’d gonna bluff, a high percentage of the time.

 

Mike:  Yes. And I’m, because he’s freight high and aggressive. The pot is already around? What is that, half my stack, a little less than half my stack? The effective stack size. So, it’s really a unique pot to win here. But, It’s going to be an attractive option for him to bluff. And I think also, that, I know, if I bet I’ll get calls from Ace-Queen, Ace-Jack. But if I choose to check, there are a very high chance he’s going to just bet it himself. With Ace-Queen, Ace-Jacks. I’m not losing any value by checking. Because the hand said he would call with if I raise here. He would probably bet with himself, if I check. So, the additional value of checking is that I also get value from his bluffing hand. It’s like, his flush draw, to straight draws. As well as his hands like – pocket 9’s, Jacks, Queens. Eh, he might just check 9’s with those. But, I’m also giving him the chance to bluff with those hands. So, I think by checking I actually get more value from his entire range. Then I get from checking, then from betting.

 

Ben:  Well, it’s close. I disagree, but. I agree that it’s close. You know, there’s some logic. You’re a clever guy. I’m pretty sure that you’re not going to argue about the pot. If it’s not, if it’s not got value. Personally, I definitely think of barrel as the right thing to do here. But, maybe, he, listeners, come on, get involved.

 

Scott:  How about me then? I’m here. You want to hear my opinion? Do we, Mike?

 

(Laughing)

 

Ben:  Go on man. Let’s hear the Scottie opinion.

 

Scott:  Because this is almost getting to you. A high level for me, but we’ll give you my lay-man’s view. I am erring on your side, okay Ben. And.

 

Mike:  HEY!!!

 

Scott:  I’ll try.

 

Mike:  BOOOO!!

 

Scott:  I’ll try the succinct. Because there are a number of thoughts running through my head here. Thought number one here is, I think checking makes it harder for me to play this hand. Because I find that I’m not able to really determine his range. When he checks behind, or even maybe when he bets. I think your point Mike on him betting – Ace-Queen and Ace-Jack. I don’t know if he would bet them like I recommend? I might check behind, if I was him? So, I don’t think I would be inducing.

Ben:  3 card, it’s a big pot. I’m scared with one pair Jack hands.

Scott & Mike:  Yeah.

Scott:  I check behind quite often. I definitely would, I don’t know about his stats but I would definitely check those hands.

Ben:  I might induce a bluff from pocket Queens on the river. If I bet I’m not really achieving that much. I don’t know what?

Scott:  Yeah.

 

Ben:  Yeah.

 

Scott:  So, what.

 

Ben:  Good point Scott.

 

Mike:  So when you bet the turn and raised. Depending on how much he raises? I just think you’re in a better position to determine what you want to do from me. When I play, I just try and make myself have easier decisions. I’ll just think by checking here, I’ll actually be making things more difficult for myself. That’s a very good point then, that I also wanted to add. Because I put myself in a really difficult spot, he bets, I check, he calls, and the river comes a Heart. Or the river comes a King, or a Queen, and I check and he goes all in. Then what do I do? Because there’s a very good chance I’m beat. Or he maybe bluffing on. By checking I’m giving the opportunity to take over the initiative. And also I put a lot into bluffs in there, that are going to be successful on the river, if that card hits. So, that’s one advantage of, or one disadvantage of checking. That would make it more difficult for myself.

 

Scott:  Mmm, and he does bet, right?

 

Mike:  And he does bet. Yeah, he does bet, $3.00 bucks. So, just around half the pot. And I decide just to call for the reason that I thought checking would give me more value. Because I’m getting more value for my bluffs.

 

Scott:  Yeah.

 

Mike:  So, if he has a total random hand. Or maybe a single pair hand. Like a pair of 10’s he just hopes that I fold my pair in my hand. Like you’re a pair of Jacks or Queens or something. So, yeah, I don’t see much value in checking or raising. Because that kind of shuts down the hand. And I would have to commit my stack. So, I just prefer check calling. But, yeah. The disadvantage of that is, that I can face a lot of difficult river situations if that bad card hits. But yeah, that’s the one I chose here. What do you think about check raising, Ben?

 

Ben:  A, no. I think check, call makes more sense. A yeah, at this point, you’ve chosen to switch to different plans. And yeah, check raising is too strong a move. You’re only going to get called by better. So, yeah, I’ve preferred check call. And now, I think you’re committing to a defense, define through the hand, which is okay.

 

 

 

Scott:  I think that’s a good point for new listeners, and we have covered it a few times on the show. But, anyone who listens to the show? The whole thing about me getting called by better. Is worth your consideration. So, maybe pause now, and just have a think, why you would only get called by better? Because it’s very important to understand that concept. So guys,

 

Ben:  No, no, it’s good, it’s good.

 

Mike:  Yeah. So, I decide to check call, and the river is the 6 of Clubs. So the board reads now.

 

Ben:  Yeah, go on. You’re gonna do the recap, and I was butting in.

 

(Chuckling)

 

Mike:  So, the board reads, 4 of Clubs, 10 of Spades, Ace of Hearts, 6 of Hearts, 6 of Clubs. So, all the opponents draw from this. The gut shots that weren’t there on the flop missed. The flush draw that came on the turn and missed as well. And the board is paired now with two 6’s. So yeah, at this point, I think the most logical decision would be to just check, and see what he does? And just call off, and it would be pretty difficult if he were to shove now. That’s the reason, you know, you’re putting yourself in a difficult situation by checking. Check calling the turn. And then you are facing a difficult river decision. But, on the other hand.

 

Ben:  With the river card coming down as a blank?

 

Mike:  Yeah.

 

Ben:  The 6 is King Kicker. When he shoves the river, I’m putting him on Ace, Ace-10, 

Ace-Jack, Ace-Queen, Ace-King, pocket 4’s, pocket 6’s. And a few miss draws. So, I think anyway, a lot against that range. And when he goes all in on the river. There’s twelve, sixteen, fourteen, in the middle. So, at 13.50 behind. So, you only need a one in 3 chance of winning, to justify the close out. I think you have to call it off. I know there’s a massive pot with one pair or it’s become two pair. But that’s my take on it. So, when I’m checking here, not check calling, I’m not considering check folding. I am check calling. I know what I am doing before I check. I think that’s really important. If you get to this point in the hand? You need to know whether you are check calling or not. I’m definitely check calling here.

 

Mike:  Yeah, exactly. And I think for the listeners, I think in the low stakes. You rarely see players to be capable of shoving the river here, a complete bluff. I guess some do, but, it’s some tight player raising from under the gun. You know, for example, if you had like, pocket Kings, or Queens, or pocket 9’s, or whatever? Just, he probably wouldn’t just shove the river, if I check. I think that’s an additional reason for check calling at the turn. Because, not many players have the balls to pull the trigger on the river. And just go all in, with complete air? Whereas in the high stakes, you would probably see this a little bit more often.

  With high thinking players, you know, they kind of sense that you’re weak and they see a good opportunity to get you off exactly the hand that I have. Ace-King, Ace-Queen, Ace-Jack, Ace-10. But, on the low-stakes, it’s less of an issue I think? I think you’re being put in really difficult spots, on the river when someone makes a complete bluff.

 

Ben:  Yeah, it’s a good point. I just can’t see folding here. Even if it wasn’t a higher stakes table. I would feel that’s, I have a plus EV call against most players with shoving range here. It’s gonna include a few miss draws. It’s gonna include a few bluffs. And it may against a weaker player, lower stakes table. May include an Ace-Jack, Ace-Queen. Which are huge! There’s a lot of combinations of those two hands.

 

Mike:  We don’t need to cover off, why we are not betting it do we? Pretty self-explanatory. Same reason as, and we’ve already switched it to defending?

 

Ben:  That’s the main reason is, and Mike is in sync. with me on this. Once you switch to defense, you know, attack, defense, attack. It doesn’t make sense, when you’re playing poker very often. It’s gonna attack, attack, defense, defense. That’s the four streets: Pre-flop, flop, turn, river.

 

Mike:  Yep.

 

Ben:  Once you’ve gone defense, you generally should stay defense. It’s check calling through the hand, and yeah, it’s okay.

 

Mike:  Yeah.

 

Ben:  I personally would have preferred for him to be on the attack this hand. But, it’s okay, I don’t mind this, yeah.

 

Scott:  Okay, and how does the hand wrap up?

 

Mike:  Yeah, so I decide to check and he checks behind. And he shows 9, 10 of Hearts. So, he actually had a pretty big hand on the turn. Because he flopped a pair of 10’s. And he turned a flush draw. So, he had quite a bit of equity still, against my hand on the turn. Because he had a 9 outs plus, what is that raise that, another 4 or 5 outs 2 pair? So, he still had a decent amount of equity on the turn. But it also goes to show. You know, he raised pre-flop with a 9-10 suited, from under the gun. And he called a pretty substantial 3 bet. With kind of a speculative hand. So, it kind of proves my reasoning that. If someone is really big start, and he’s raising from under the gun? That it’s not limited to pre-hands, there’s also definitely hands in there like this, with decent suit connectors. And yeah, I’m a bit surprised he called a suit royalty big 3 bet with 9, 10 suited. With one player left too, behind him. But, a yeah.

 

Scott:  Yeah, that’s probably the bottom of his calling right guys?

 

Ben:  Yeah.

 

Mike:  Yeah, it’s reasonable, it’s reasonable.

 

Ben:  Without, eh, I think he could fold, yeah. But I don’t think calling is ridiculous with 9-10 suited. It was $1,50. Yeah, he’s made the call, he’s flopped middle pair, he’s got to carry on. He’s turned. It does make a lot of sense when you play the hand through from his perspective. And I think you should double barrel with him. You still get called. But you’re in control of that hand. I think you lose control of the hand when you check. That’s my take on it.

 

Scott:  And they’re going to disagree on the turn!

 

Mike:  Oh yeah. That’s alright, we cut that off.

 

Scott:  Alright, good hand Mike, thanks for that one. Now, I guess we need to determine a bonus hand in? What do ya think?

 

Mike:  Let’s do it! Let’s do it! Let’s do it!

 

Ben:  Alright, do it.

 

Scott:  Quickie, it has to be a quickie! Because my bed time is fast approaching. Alright, we’ll fit one more hand in. A bonus so stay with us. It’s bonus hand number 3 coming up on the

“Post-Flop Poker Podcast.”

 

[00:59:25]

(Music Out)

[00:59:42]

 

Scott:  Welcome back everybody, we have commiserates doing hand #3. We’ve looked at the time. And how long that last hand took us. So, we are going to give ourselves a bit of a challenge. Oh, it’s going to be very difficult, for both Ben and Mike. But we are going to see if we can get this through this hand. Inside, they are saying, inside of five minutes. I think 5 minutes is impossible. I will aim for ten minutes. What do you think guys, really, realistic?

 

Mike:  Five-minute challenge is up.

 

Ben:  Yeah.

 

Scott:  Challenge accepted. Alright, I don’t think you can do it, five minutes, I don’t think so. But we’ll see. Alright Ben, your hand.

 

Ben:  6 marks certain gun. Ace-Jack suited, small blind, ah, big blind, big blind.

 

Scott:  It’s not a game show.

 

(Laughing)

 

Ben:  Yeah. Ace-Jack of Spades, there’s a raise under the gun. And a call from the guy next to him in the cut off. There’s five players at the table. And so, high Jack raises 70. Cut-off calls, I’m in the big blind with Ace-Jack suited. And I choose, early stages of singer. I just choose to flat. So, I’m really being defensive. I chose to just flat quick, pre-flop. Mike, is that an okay call, when you’re?

 

Mike:  Yep, I agree. You’re out of position, and early doors. Um, yeah, and with a decent hand. But, not great, you just want to keep the pot small.

 

Ben:  Just a really quick point through, for the people at. And when you got suited hung in this type of spot. Your hand has a bit more quit-ee. So, flatting makes more sense. If you’ve got an unsuited hand. 3 better or fold, makes a bit more sense, just generally speaking. And that’s in both cash games and in tournaments. So, I flat on the flop, is Jack of Clubs, 7 of Clubs, 2 of Clubs.

 

Mike:  There’s 3.20 in the middle.

 

Ben:  Early stages of sit and go. What do I do? I’ve got Top Pair-Top Kicker, TP-TK. And, well, I decided to do something strange? I bet 30% of the pot. And this is a dunk bet. It’s not standard, um, I think it’s a good time to dunk that, I don’t think it’s a good size, I prefer a bit bigger size. But, I am trying to isolate. And I’m trying not to build the pot too much because I’m scared of all these clubs. So, I’m very sympathetic with my bet. I sympathize with myself. But, actually, what advice I would give, my then self, would be? You need to choose really. Whether you’re going to isolate. Or whether you’re going to try to keep the pot small. There isn’t so much an in between. And I’m trying to do the best of both worlds. I’m trying to isolate this with more bat. Just not going to work very often. Over to Mike. 

 

Mike:  Yeah, I don’t mind it. Actually I have different numbers on my screen. Because your bet of 100 into a pot of 220. So, that’s half the size.

 

Ben:  220, it is, was half the pot size. So, right Mike, my bad.

 

Mike:  Yeah, I don’t mind his bet size too much, betting half pot. Because exactly, you’re trying to isolate, and trying to get value at the same time, against two players on board. A, yeah, I’m not, yeah, I think this is a good bet size, I wouldn’t go any lower or higher I think.

 

Ben:  I think I could go higher. But, yeah, it’s okay, it’s way bigger than I thought.

 

Scott:  And there’s a raise from.

 

Ben:  A raise from under the gun. So, somebody with pocket Queens, Kings, Aces, very consistent with that hand. Ace of Clubs, I made the raise.

 

Mike:  He actually calls, by the way.

 

Scott:  Yeah, Ben you’re doing a great job of fucking this up.

 

Mike:  The guy next to you, and he calls, and the other guy raises.

 

Scott:  Yes. That’s right, I’m.

 

Mike:  You’re really panicking here, it’s hard with a time limit.

 

Scott:  Do you want to know how much time you’ve already spoken for?

 

Ben:  Oh, four minutes now. Okay, so the under the gun, the guy in the high chair, flops my dunk bet. And the cut off raises to 280. So, I bet 100, call, and raise to 280. And I fold, and.

 

(Laughter)

 

Scott:  Ah, 4 minutes 48 seconds.

 

Ben:  I do fold.

 

Mike:  What were your reasons for folding?

 

Ben:  Well, as with the first lay down, the first hand, the thing is aggression. The call from the first play is? Somebody’s probably got either a Club in his hand, and therefore you know, automatically close to a 40% or 50% chance of beating me, or even better. Or perhaps he’s even got top pair and he’s gliding along. But still, not good. But when the second player raises, that’s problematic. A player raising in this bluff, has either got the Ace of Clubs and made flush. Or something like a set. You know, usually players don’t choose to raise in this type of spot, especially the sizing. It just stinks of, “I’m trying to get my spot on you.”

 

Mike:  That’s what I thought, the sizing here seems so lucky. He’s begging for you to call. So, he’s raised it to 280. So, you bet 100. Which just looks like he’s just itching for that call.

 

Ben:  So, in the early stages of sit and go, the risk of folding against King-Jack is something. I’m just going to lay this down. I think I save money in the long run. If I do this every time, save money. You know, sometimes you might fold, or you might win a big pot. But, if you play this hand 100 times, I think you’re going to lose money. So, I think the fold is sensible. And my main message to people is, people in this spot is, when you have two players showing you aggression or board. And you’ve only got one path, it’s not enough, fold your hand. And that’s what I do here. And I’m glad that I did.

 

Scott:  Final thoughts Mike, nothing to add?

 

Mike:  Discipline fold. There are a lot of those low stakes for recreation players having difficulty making because they just look at the board and their hand. And they think, “Ah, I’ve got the hand, Top Pair-Top Kicker. You know, basically the, “Nut Song” this type of board and I should go with it. But, just like Ben said, given what happens. In the first guy calling, and there’s a good chance of either a draw or maybe a flush, you know, just slow playing. But, in most cases, he went a draw. But the second guy, raising he just has to have a very big hand. And you’re kind of in the middle here. You can’t really call, because then the pot will really be big. And out of position. And you face a lot of difficult stuff on the turn and river. So, either you’re gonna have to fold, or probably just commit to the hand and raise and get it all in. But, yeah. I think it’s fair to say, they’re beat most of the time. And sometimes you’ll have to pay sand. But you will get it out drawn on the turn and the river. So, yeah. So, just over all if the equity of your hand looks pretty poor in this spot? And it’s a fold. And I think it’s a good answer to conclude in the show. It’s just discipline fold. And a lot of recreational players would just go bust here.

 

Scott:  Hum, I can point out for our listeners, to a few different Poker Podcasts. And it’s very frustrating when you don’t get to find out what they, the actual hands were. At least, so that and Dale, and the guy who just flatted, had pocket Queens. And the guy who raised on the flop there, had, a King-10 of Clubs. Where he had flopped the flop with a flush and he went ahead and won the hand. A good fold then.

 

Ben:  Yeah, those were behind us both players. I didn’t think I was, I would have played back against the Queens had I not had the extra information from the raise on the cut off. But, he saved me money. And he allowed me to fold a third best hand.

 

Scott:  Cool, well, we’ve come in just under ten minutes, and I had predicted. So, thank you guys. Okay, let’s take a 5-minute break, and then we’ll wrap up the show, It’s the,

“Post-Flop Poker Podcast.”

 

[01:08:37]

(Music Out)

(Commercial)

[01:08:56]

 

Scott:  Welcome back everyone. I hope you all enjoyed that triple treat as it were.

 

(Laughing)

 

Scott:  That was the first time we’ve done three hands. I think we have done three hands once?

 

Ben:  We’ve done it, or.

 

Scott:  Not for a while. So,

 

Mike:  No, we’ve done speed hand before.

 

Scott:  No, I’ve quite enjoyed the speed hand. I think maybe we could do that again in the future? What have we got coming up in episode #21 then? We sort of talked about that in one of those three hands?

 

Ben:  A yeah, it’ll be Top Pair – Medium Kicker. Which will be second best kicker. And then the following week, the Top Pair – Low Kicker.

 

Scott:  Oh, we’re getting into murky waters.

 

Mike:  A, yeah, very murky waters. But this is great. We’re getting into. This flop is quite strong, a TP-TK. But as you go down to the weaker kicker, not so much. Eh, you make a lot less money. People don’t realize how important the kicker is? Very important.

 

Scott:  I do remember that from my coaching days with you. And you rammed into me how important the kicker was. It’s still in the back of my mind.

 

Mike:  Well, well done me.

 

Scott:  It’s that cutie accent. The kicker’s not good enough!

 

(Everyone Laughing)

 

Scott:  Ah, you were great as my coach. Well, it definitely helped.

 

Mike:  Definitely.

 

Scott:  Well, I don’t really have any? I didn’t play any live tournaments. I

 

Mike:  Well, there’s no pop stories this week.

 

Scott:  Not this week no.

 

Mike:  OH NO! Like the hero saying how entertaining the pub story was. We need more pub stories.

 

Scott:  Yes. Well, I’ll be sure to get some back on that band wagon. But, unfortunately there was noting on this sport. So, I haven’t played. I did, I know that I mention this quite a bit. I’m quite proud my under nines team, I coach. We had our last game of the season on Sunday. And we won against a very strong team. And then they bought me a spurs shirt. This was like for the gift for coaching the team this season. The parents chipped in, they bought me a spurs shirt. And got “Coach” written on the back. It was very.

 

Mike:  Oh, beautiful. This guy, it should be a Twitter moment.

 

Scott:  No, I will tweet it. Because it fits perfectly, it’s like a legit proper spurs shirt. I’m not a fake from York, from your neck of the woods Ben. Like a legit Spurs shirt, that they got me. The fact that the parents went to that effort was very good. It was a very proud moment for me. That was my highlight of the week.

 

Mike:  And did they write “Coach” on the back with marker?

 

Scott:  No, no, Mike they got it professionally done, #16. I don’t know why they picked #16? There’s a real connection there. And they got coach put on the back. Which I thought was really cool. So,

 

Ben:  There’s this special offer on #16.

 

Scott:  Yeah, that’s what I thought. Something must have gotten on there? I don’t even know who even is #16 for the Spurs currently? But anyway, there’s it was very sweet to give me that. And any game show news for Mark, or is that still on hold?

 

Mike:  No game show news. I’m still waiting by it, and by the phone, hoping for them to call me. But a yeah, no news there. A

 

Scott:  Fingers crossed.

 

Mike:  Fingers crossed yeah. And the first draft of my book is finished. And so, that’s good news. Hoping to release within a couple of weeks there. I, there’s still a lot of stuff to do. I’m making a short, hyper turbo video course as a book. So, I’m just going through making that. That short’s going to be a little longer. Before I can release with the first draft is finished. And that’s always good news.

 

Scott:  Fantastic. Done, we’ll definitely keep an eye out for that. And let listeners know when that comes out? And, oh, I was going to say something? About it, but the moment has passed. But then you were so funny when you were doing that speed hand. You were treating it like it was a game. I’m sure, so, so, it reminded me of you know. Those particular British game shows where they are doing, you know, kind of like a Charades based kind of thing. You definitely had shades of that going on. So, you know, maybe you could look into that tie game shows? I’m sure they have them.

 

Ben:  What I’m thinking about right now is, perhaps we could get Mike’s telephone number released to the general public. Perhaps everyone could call in with blank phone calls from the game show. This is the game show, you just got to pass 5 easy questions, you know?

 

 (Laughing)

 

Scott:  Perhaps that would be funny. The last episode.

 

Ben:  Yeah, he did say. He would get us.

 

Scott:  Cool. Alright, well. I think we could probably wrap it up. What do ya think?

 

Mike:  A good show, in the bag.

 

Ben:  One bagged.

 

Scott:  Yep. And looking forward to the next episodes with the TP-MK’s, TP-WMK.

 

Ben:  Yes, yes. I was going to say the same thing earlier. But my brain wasn’t quick enough to work out all the acronyms. Kudos to you.

 

Mike:  I said that one first, the other one, what was it?

 

Scott:  TP-TK. It’s pp. That’s so funny thing. Okay, well, a on that note. Let’s wrap up the show. Thank you Mike, for your insights as usual. And thank you Ben, for your humility. And giving up you time, I know it’s precious to come on the show. And share your strategic advice with us. It’s much appreciated.

 

Ben:  Very well, I speak for all of us when I say it. It’s an honor to be involved in the show. We switched.

 

(Laughing)

 

Scott:  Alright, I’ll catch you in a couple of weeks. Four weeks, guys for the next episode, of the “Post-Flop Poker Podcast.”

 

 

 

[01:14:47]

(Music Out)

[01:15:06]

 

 

End Audio.